File:Island-Crime-s1e05-A-Tipster-An-Outside-Investigator.mp3

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Island Crime s1e05:A Tipster & An Outside Investigator (38m) Thu May 28, 2020 (Laura Palmer)

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source: https://island-crime.simplecast.com/episodes/s1e5-a-tipster-and-an-outside-investigator
spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6AQVPkSZ7M8de1Ochin2al
apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/s1e5-a-tipster-and-an-outside-investigator/id1513479877?i=1000501366635
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOaxWFTvTgM (Posted July 7, 2020)
archive: https://archive.org/download/island-crime-lisa-marie-young/island%20crime%20s1e05%20a%20tipster%20and%20an%20outside%20investigator.mp3

[Reproduced under Copyright Act (Canada) s.29.2 - Fair Dealing for the purpose of news reporting]

Transcript

Island Crime: Season 1, Episode 5 A Tipster & An Outside Investigator May 28, 2020

[Auto-generated transcript – Contains errors]

for the first time this morning motorists travelling the Island Highway through the news Bay could have seen the billboards for two missing and possibly murdered women from Vancouver Island Lisa Young and Angeline Pete a giant billboard with Lisa's picture has just gone up on the island Lisa's friends are fighting to keep her memory alive and her case active they've been pushing for answers for almost 18 years 15 years gone and Lisa Marie Young's loved ones continue to ask the same question the 21 year old brunette vanished on June 30th 2002 after leaving a party Lisa's mother Joanne organized a march for Lisa every year Joanne Young never sought out the media spotlight but that's where she found herself time and again as she tried to make sure the search for her missing daughter releasing him never faded from the public eye on this day she was feeling positive because the federal government had just announced a national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and I really hope folks will follow through that was Joanne Young's last interview with check news and when Joanne dies Lisa's family and friends carry on the early walks under grain and I know Sky's 16 years to the day that Lisa Marie Young vanished from this community her family and friends are gathered to march and find justice for her life stopped that moment her family and friends ly stopped in that moment and there is increased interest in Lisa's story as cases of murdered and missing indigenous women are the subject of a national inquiry families of 29 murdered and missing women have travelled to this Port Alberni gymnasium from across the west coast to share for the record what happened to their mothers sisters and daughters and a lasting impact it's having all those left behind I wonder if those responsible for what happened to Lisa are paying attention Lisa's story isn't fading away

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I'm Laura Palmer for more than 25 years I worked as a producer in a big-city newsroom I recently moved to an island and I'm digging into stories I didn't have time to tell this is season 1 a violent crime the case of Lisa Marie Young episode 5 a tipster and an outside investigator British Columbia has the highest number of missing adult reports in the country the vast majority are resolved within a week but after almost 18 years Lisa is still missing here is the official word on Lisa Marie's disappearance as it appears on the RCMP s national website for Canada's missing persons Lisa Marie Young was last seen in the early morning hours of June 30th 2002 she went to a local bar and met some male acquaintances after the bar closed she and her acquaintances accepted a ride from another man whom they had just met Lisa Marie was last seen with the men in the vehicle heading to get some food her friends and family have not heard from her since which is completely out of character the billboards and the intention to Lisa's case online are working people are still surfacing with information David is one of those people and a warning the information David tells me is disturbing the next recovery Alec I've been cleaning up for ten years I've been in prison of my life computers that parole I was married was a professional prizefighter I was one of the gangster again and I was involved with serious people and doing bad stuff you know and that's all I knew that's all I knew right anyways uh I mean longer I have my last prison sentence was 2002 but I'm a born-again Christian also this is all God I'm telling and I haven't been to prison I don't live that lifestyle I don't because I'm a new personality something's haunting me and this is one I do want to hear you know how your how you're doing now cuz it sounds like you've got a different and maybe more positive life now bodybuilder now I'm a champion bodybuilder Hammacher going so I just competed in Mr. Canada and Quebec love Dow last year I 60 next year I was a nightmare 55 grandmasters 55 years and older I mean that's and I know I was on the farm funded with family members I bring you gold and dog to dog so you have this new life and it sounds like things are going well what is it you that's weighing on your mind waiting on my mind it always been weighing on my mind I just met a stone age that is illiterate a lizard could be 8 to 26 and I just saw on the computer not long ago my family you know got me on the computer so we kind of work it anyway and y'all time you see something about in Denver Alicia people if you know anything I know I've been trying to give Albany to myself right so one day I'm just like nearly here - I chose Isis okay I got it I pray to God a good guide if you wanted me to do this let's do this it has away once again I know yeah what is it you know and how do you know it together okay like this if I got free but because yeah because I can't believe this guy enemies never says anything about it nothing Oh too much later I'm a drug dealer uh-huh it happened to both Lisa Marie gone missing and you should buy drugs from me I don't know her name if the boy's name was Rob now this is how the taste how all this comes conquer the car company it's a lot easier for her telling me about what happened well she said I said what talking why are you so fearful what happened she goes I think I'm gonna kill me cuz what one well I know what's down on my place what happened they had recently at their house and you're supposed to do dinner there's what me doing a quantum movie like a not really but it was like yeah I can function well not actually one is of your spawn went sour suppose we went south she got murdered and it may be they took the body and they drop it into the well telling me is what's going on here buddy and yogi so just do it he's telling me tell her what happened did you just say that they said they put Lisa's body down a well cuz they're beautiful that he long case was yeah people cuz you know the Google Talk and like where he had two girls I really the links are really starting to like a weak link that's saying the weak links you really have to read links and I'm surprised how this ship is staying afloat and nobody is talking in between them make us eBoost yes both people hey Trina yeah Julian's boss nah I wouldn't go far as both me extended it being is conscious likely talking to the girl there right Timmy that's bull don't you feel somebody go on just on your business I'm only me bring your novel has a you know a good understanding of who a good candidate you know and why I have to say God but I hope a comes to good for these police and they dodge them I will come to court no fee at all over the years Lisa's parents Don and Joanne would get calls from people like David who claim to have information about Lisa I can't imagine what it would be like to hear these stories over and over again I'm not in a position to verify what David has told me there is no second source some of what he says sounds fantastic but I have been able to confirm elements of his background he was indeed a bad guy I checked his criminal record and he is a champion body builder I found stories of his wins

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many of the names of people connected with Lisa's disappearance have a background as prize fighters boxers and bodybuilders as I listened to David to try to assess his credibility I'm reminded of another phone conversation I had many years ago I interviewed Robert Willie Pickton over the phone in the late 1990s very early on in my journalism career the story was about taxes back then Pickton was simply a pig farmer raising concerns about taxes on agricultural land this was a few years before his arrest at a time when he was in the midst of his serial killing spree Pickton would go on to be known as Canada's very worst serial killer after his arrest I found the contact info I had put into our database I'd simply noted that Pickton was a good talker media slang for someone who can successfully string a few words together if you put a mic in front of them I think of that conversation as I speak with people about Lisa Marie's disappearance my judgment is better than it was back then honed over more than 25 years and thousands of interviews and yet this story is tricky terrain this is an open investigation Lisa is still missing a number of people I've spoken to on and off the record expressed fear I'm doing my best to present information that is truthful but I'm wary of being played in the last episode we talked about how time really is not on our side in this case Dallas Holly Lisa's friend and one of the last people to see her alive is now dead run over on the side of the road Lisa's mom Joanne a woman who carried on her own investigation and campaign for justice is dead now - and just after I interviewed David I learned from him that one of the characters he talked about one of the brothers linked to Lisa's disappearance has now died as well and so I'm anxious for answers now the police won't talk to me but I'm eager to speak with someone who can bring an investigative perspective to Lisa's case now reach out to local private detectives one agrees to act as an informal soundboard for my questions for background only I take him up on this offer and I seek out others with relevant experience people with investigative insights to offer recalling my interview with Robert Pickton reminds me that a leading authority on missing women investigations is right here on my doorstep Lorrimer shedder wrote a book about his experience on the Pickton case it's called lonely section of hell the botched investigation of a serial killer who almost got away Lorrimer is no longer a police officer he's just begun work overseeing security at a local university he agrees to speak with me about Lisa Marie's case from his home in Vancouver my name is your armour center I'm a retired 27 year Vancouver police officer I was in sector's former 21 of those years and my biggest I guess detective duties were around Vancouver's missing women times brought in initially to just look at 17 missing woman's files that we had that all had a very seemed to be really similar we were women for the Downtown Eastside struggling with addiction working in the sex trade some of them indigenous but not quite the same demographics as seen across the country with a majority I'm sure that I indigenous weak I think indigenous women of my file but I had and yeah I worked on that case on my first week I got a chip on the other picked and who ended up being convicted of murdering six of our women and I suppose really heard that work I think I became painfully aware of the inadequacies of a lot of police investigations around there some missing people and specifically missing women and more specifically missing marginalized women because I started to see that the deaf I was soon to different level of service and I think part of it was not so much because we were just dismissed out of hand but that there were a lot of stereotypes when investigators held about people living in those kinds of circumstances in the stereotypes who have gotten the way of a robust investigation I briefly describe the facts of the case to Lorimer and I asked him to place himself back in that time back when Lisa has first gone missing and then I asked him if the police response in those first early hours seems normal but it wasn't it wasn't because I would I would submit that if it were a middle-class white girl ah there would have been a lot more concern and only because those detectives would have been informed thought that that was unusual for her whereas within with an indigenous woman as their victim missing person in their mind goes wrong maybe she's a drug user and those children who already know the circumstances about you know she no party or social in social situations and they would make all these little you know fine-tuned decisions about who she was and about her life that they would not even be conscious of it would make them say yeah we can move for names before they jump on this and they wouldn't think they wouldn't do that I submit with normal but it's not nor the way that they're handled oftentimes the normal progression that this victim stereotyped only issue happening and so they you know they're sort of almost like lower priority missing person cases because they think aspects of that person's motion it makes them not which makes their disappearance a little less style it makes me think that they're not even realistic which I heard a million times in my investigation now is she really missing you know because there'd be again new stereotypes these surgical ideas that that may be living in Devonshire indigenous women who'd like to go out with his friends a lot and now that she drinks that somehow no doubt is some kind of a little bend in return for him and that often you know needs to prove that consequently Joanne that's Lisa's mum was you know so worried that people would that the police we would not pay as much attention or worse assume that Lisa Marie was a prostitute that really she tried to downplay Lisa Marie's indigenous background um you know is that like when you hear that it does that sound like was it like was it really that much of a factor I just I can't imagine a mom having to think about that when she's talking to police absolutely common practice among indigenous mothers reporting their daughters I treated time and time and time and time again I'm talking they know I mean some women anecdotal among them when they talk to each other that they know full well same way I think when white people talk about how to interact with this is what you do to be safe and for indigenous moms misses in order for the hopefully to get their daughters cases taking on that we're seriously yeah absolutely true it's horrifying you know I think that the National Enquirer is you could have a look at some of the details of milestones this theme comes up time and time and time again the story kind of hits the papers I'm gonna say about four or five days after words and in the first story the police are quoted as saying you know they have no reason to suspect foul play what would make police suspect something had gone wrong I'm just I found it a curious thing to read in that first report and so like what would they have had to have heard to make them think something had gone wrong you know I can't speak for them because I can't put myself in that mindset but me hearing that to dentist and I will teach Nikolas because to me the only thing I think insurance man investigators effect is that she was laughs spoken to in a car with somebody holding him gets her wrong and the fact that you haven't found and those were her last interactions was coming from being another to me that's more than life I worked on the assumption that you rule things out before you do nothing easy-breezy best the game hard and go out at home sure enough she's fine but she's tied about when someone doesn't want to be found great best-case scenario everybody's happy but short of that telling her friends that she's in a car not being allowed to read to me that just screams just assist them in in combination with the fact that she listen no I don't know what those police would have needed to think it was suspicious but I personally would not have as I begin listening back to my conversation I think about those early days of the police investigation and I wonder when did Dallas Hulley tell the police about the calls he had from Lisa Marie?

Lisa's father Don says he recalls hearing that in the day or two after Lisa was gone Shirley had the police have known that next day that she had called Dallas and she said she was uncomfortable about not being let go from the red jag that would have been enough to make them suspect foul play you know now if somebody is missing you you know pops up on Facebook and Twitter and what-have-you but back then like how quickly would the media have been involved if it was Atkins for police would they involve the media straight away back then no the only time if you were they would consider to be a high profile child early person someone who they determined with their own estimation the definition of vulnerability has changed a great deal at that time so Lisa's body has never been found but and so she's officially still listed as missing but no one I've talked to believes she's alive and in fact it's quite a peculiar circumstance well to my mind in that it so many people I talked to in the community feel quite confident they know exactly what happened what do you make of the fact that her body was never found unusual is that private it's quite unusual and invariably over time something usually turns out yeah there's some other unfortunate other time you know with decomposition and critters in the water it doesn't get them unidentified human being sexually that they've developed basically since I was going to mail mister building back starting back in Miami and fragment no human fragment that they might time you know the typical think you finger whatever they find me I mean catalogue hang on circumstances come up with and can match that again don't do damage from a missing person but they know I've had a lot of success with that so much you know it can be found it just it's pretty honest pretty suspicious Lisa's mom Joanne a few weeks after Lisa has gone missing is asked to come to Parksville to a lock-up there where they have the guy who was last seen with her and she's asked to bring you know pictures of Lisa Marie some of her belongings is that how common is that is that as an as an approach well there you would eventually use that approach in trying to you're sort of coordinate that with an effort to try to give the suspect kind of a face-saving way to admit what he did some really intelligent justice was just this is rough sex what went wrong or this was then just you hit her but you're trying to charm she just hit her hand is that what happened no you try to sort of give them these slightly less expensive alternatives to they can say yeah actually that was amen and so there's just a way in basically again you know just playing armchair quarterback makes me think we don't really understand the mind nor do I but enough to know that nobody understands the mind these guys look do us and unless you know somebody who spends with her or had some sort of intimate connection with her the likelihood of playing in sympathetic is pretty slim and functions it's obvious if they weren't able to church him but that was all I had and sort of we certainly chip off to the suspect that we've got nothing out we've got no other but if somebody just walks out again I know this is not your investigation and you're looking at this down the years as well one of the things that certainly is raised by family and friends is that he was a member of a prominent local family and you know he was driving a red jag and like really kind of stood out in the community as somebody well-connected like buddy so like really like how much would that be taken into consideration a lot you know I mean it's it's one of those things were you know if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably abducted Anzhi I think you know there's this kind of thing happens all the time where and again I really go back to regular stereotypes because you know if this guy then falls into that type in their mind good family you know good because in with a quite good family with my name so they can go down so this is a guy family knows each other child upon the people and you know he doesn't sit there idea a killer probably you know they probably don't think super highly of the victim in terms of even putting the two of them together and I think this might be beneath him for some reason you know this is again I'm not speaking about my views occur that at the views of investigators that could be stereotype of her as well so these all plan to the approach that the police tape and so like I said in all this I think in the investigators Minds may all think they're doing with anything they're doing a great job but again it's all based in these almost like template cooking well you know kind of a stereotype player in this little play and then we have those stereotypes Bennett it's gonna fall a very stereotypical path my name is investigators Washington s making a candidate and bias today I'm going to be looking for a system because we don't think you can't like that but what happens is there so as all of us are we have all these biases we carry and we all do and if you're not even aware that we have when you're not going to be able to question them or step out fire them for a second so am I building with about this investigation then bearing in mind all the I think I have the problems I'm having the biases I think the problem is when you can't acknowledge that you carry them and then look beyond them well that particular interaction with between the police and Lisa Marie's mom Joanne also there's a moment where she is asked and I was told this by three different people so I have no reason to believe it's not true but that she was asked to hug this guy one yeah again I can't imagine an airburst with me now a Caucasian another application that do that I can imagine I can't imagine or I like it send her something on this we're still having somebody some status analog one who wasn't marginalized with some way never do that and we wouldn't think about it we wouldn't they wouldn't even probably be able to touch each other why did you do it with this person but no not with this person that's unfortunately I'm surprising to me that whatever that happened but at any rate no charges were ever laid and then you know there's a suggestion that there were others involved at these other parties and that's where you kind of get into rumor ville and speculation because yeah you know none of that anyone has ever had first-hand knowledge tonight comment on something about that yes it's okay cuz that's really interesting to me too because I think that really speaks to an adequate some American team an investigation strategy because the same thing happened was picked on it was quite clear pretty early on after he was arrested and you know we had wiretap and lots and lots of stuff is coming out about his involvement and it was finished I had always suspected that I was involved in that too and I think the RCMP felt like that was possible as well and then they started to see some indications of that identification was kind of developing but there was a point where they made a choice and I don't know if it was a conscious choice or not but they decided they were going to just focus on victim and that they were going to try to bring all these potential co-accused bring them on side as witness was against pectin but in doing that they kind of they threatened them all with in charged potentially as co-accused if they didn't cooperate they said no this is really test fire tell us everything you know about pectin oil we're going to charge him true and almost universally they all just have to the national team screw you guys I'm not saying anything and I go ahead and charge me you don't have anything it's a new year they have nothing law caught dead last and so obstinately when the trial came half of this people didn't even get called to testify in any way and they didn't get charged the pessaries or being accused and I don't believe that you if you actually going to have the resources to investigate the conspiracy part of that case that I believe actually nest and so that's the wonder if this isn't the same where they just decided to focus on with this television on one guy and they don't really pay a lot of attention to maybe ten of the indicators but there are others about real people telling them look there's other people involved it's too complicated for them to be able to manage so they just don't they just just don't know what is going to film at this guy and then that guy's not your guy I think not so much they want to go off the case I think they actually sometimes just don't believe the people who you know and there's like many who believe they know what happened you know all seem to say the same thing which is you know there's a party and there's some very bad people at that party guys who have lengthy criminal records two particular brothers a part of me just wants to believe it's simply that there was never a body found and that it's just been impossible to charge anybody without the body but I don't know that was 2002 right yes yeah so you know even though 9 mm one of the DPD homicide detectives are actually looking at a conviction again the gang keeps we're never had a body and just you're doing a Mr. DNA right and it was starting to become possible for this whole notion that I bumped up against a lot okay so no body no crime we're starting to change ohhh starting to slowly change so it's funny not funny but you know speaking with the families and the friends they are also reluctant to openly criticize the police because that's their only connection you know and the families you talk to I'm imagining in the Pickton case must have gone through similar kind of feelings like if you're not satisfied with an investigation what do you do police it like lots of post-conversion conclusion that there's no poison that says do your damn job or reply you know the same rigor to your job for everybody virtually every person I've talked to in Nanaimo they all say the same story and they all you know believe it that is social behaviour I got to tell you what so my book came out 2015 and so I've been toured with it I still speak quite a bit ballgame yeah everywhere publicly someone to always come to me and it had some connection with remember some connection with that farm and they said well I know somebody's delivering the ice so when I grew up there yeah they've all had some dealership accountant that helps to confirm a theories around going on out there that never saw the other day and I suspect on their case on spectrum okay Lorrimer jenner is right there are people on the island who know something it just takes one of them to come forward and do the right thing I think about Lisa's father Don he is in his early 60s caring for an adult son hoping to retire considering a move I think about Lisa's grandparents they have all waited too long for answers coming up in episode six a former white-collar crime fighter who has taken a special interest in Lisa's case I know the killers are I know who was involved and no more numerous people many others in denial know who's involved and who took Lisa from them yes nothing has happened and you know to a normal citizen you kind of think you know you can't get away with murder but you can get away and people do get away with murder and in this case they are getting away with murder.

I'm Laura Palmer and this is Island Crime.

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