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Island Crime s1e08:The RCMP Break Their Silence (50m) Fri June 26, 2020 (Laura Palmer)

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Transcript

Island Crime: Season 1, Episode 8: The RCMP Break Their Silence (June 26, 2020)

[autogenerated, contains errors]

[Music]

I called and emailed the Nanaimo detachment of the RCMP to request an interview about Lisa Marie Young's case on September 23 2019 my first conversation over the phone is with Constable Gary O'Brien the detachments media relations officer he is both professional and cordial he tells me they will give it some consideration time goes by I don't hear back I follow up regularly and later that fall I receive an email from Constable O'Brien in response to me once again following up on that initial request it reads hi Laura I spoke with the investigators and they are not interested in pursuing the podcast Gary but now fast forward June 18 2020 almost nine months since that no something has changed in the episode you're about to hear both Constable Gary O'Brien and the lead investigator on Lisa Marie's case finally talked to me I don't believe that would have happened without the substantial amount of interest in this podcast so thank you to the tens of thousands of you who subscribed and downloaded and listened thank you for caring about Lisa Marie Young your attention helped the police see a value in speaking to me and here's something else I would say to any young journalist listening if a source says no to an interview don't assume that's the end of the story be creative be persistent sometimes it pays off I'm Laura Palmer you're listening to where is Lisa season one of my new true crime podcast Island Crime I worked in a big city newsroom for more than 25 years and now I'm digging into stories I didn't have time to tell this is episode 8 the RCMP break their silence the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are Canada's national police force we call them the Mounties it's 2020 and like police forces everywhere the Mounties are under pressure to improve relationships with the communities they serve there have been large public demonstrations in response to the treatment of indigenous people and black lives matter as well there are calls to defund the RCMP in the interview you are about to hear Corporal Muntener will make the point that they can't do their jobs without the support of the community and so this interview coming as it does now in the heat of a battle for hearts and minds may also be something of a public relations exercise I get that but I am still sincerely grateful for the chance to speak with these police officers when at long last I finally get a yes to an interview I'm quick to schedule a time and race to Nanaimo while I'm outside the detachment a woman arrives with a flat of Tim Horton's donuts she is here to thank the police for their assistance in finding some missing keys while shopping for a baby gift recently I encountered an old woman knitting small dolls shaped like Mounties these are reminders to me that many people still see the Mounties as beloved Canadian icons as heroes and protectors but some of you listening will have a deep mistrust of police some of you will trust journalists like me even less so over to you to listen and judge for yourself in this first in-depth interview with two of the police officers involved in Lisa Marie Young's case it's Constable Gary O'Brien who comes down to meet me at the entrance of the detachment we have never met in person before for a second I don't recognize him his signature mustache is gone he tells me it's his new pandemic look he's in uniform fit tanned energetic for a man who is a veteran with the force Constable O'Brien escorts me upstairs through a maze of gray dull offices to a boardroom we are joined by Corporal Muntener the lead on Lisa's case he is the younger of the two thin serious he has a stack of notes I want to make the most of my time and we get down to business quickly Corporal Muntener will do most of the speaking in the interview but it is Constable O'Brien who takes the lead at the start beginning on a surprisingly personal note I actually knew Lisa I was friends with her and her friends my wife and I would spend some time with them we got to know Lisa back in about 1999 young vivacious girl heading out on her own I was actually contacted by one of her good friends several days after she went missing very concerned and I did what anybody would I was on days off I called the office and at that point the investigation had commenced so can you just say that uh again for me you are you a police officer at that point so this is all going back almost 20 years you how did you know Lisa I was a police officer I was doing general duty work and I was on days off and my wife and I were friends with a woman who knew her very well and Lisa and her friends would come over and spend time in their backyard and we'd hang out and I had a good reaction to Lisa she's just a nice young lady I saw nothing on toward about her she's just a nice girl very quiet very unassuming and about two days after she went missing her good friend called me on my days off and they were very concerned they knew that Lisa was starting a new job she was out that evening they've been texting her or calling her non-stop no response very concerned so I did like any person with as a police officer as well I called our office spoke with the investigators and at that point the investigation was well into the first or second day and I left it at that okay and so you know you briefly sort of described what she was like but I you know when I'm talking to anyone who knew her I'm so keen to hear more about uh your impressions of her you just tell me a little bit more Lisa was quiet she didn't smile a lot the picture that circulates with Lisa is exactly how I remember her and we shared some good times like she would join in the conversation she shared her thoughts about starting a new job she didn't talk much about boys but we knew that she'd like to go out and party with her friend she had a wide variety of friends in the community and that's why it her friends when her friend called me she was so upset because she knew that Lisa was very responsible she was starting a new job she wasn't showing up she wasn't responding to the phone calls which is out of character for her very troubling and I sensed the trepidation in her friend's voice and that's why I called the office and as we said the investigation had begun okay so same question for you can you again just say your name and what your relationship is to Lisa Marie Young's case right now sure it's uh it's Markus Muntener um I'm a Corporal in the serious crime unit at Nanaimo detachment and I'm the primary investigator that's uh coordinating the investigation into Lisa's disappearance and um somewhat new to the island as I didn't grow up here like or haven't worked here as much as Gary for instance but um I've about 18 years service I've worked in major crime for most of my service I've worked in a cold case unit in surrey detachment where I worked before and it's a type of work that I really enjoy um I find it rewarding and I've had some successes in the past on some cases there so it's something that I'm passionate about and yeah it's something that really is a rewarding part of policing for me I should add so it's interesting how life evolves because at that time the investigation had begun I was not part of the investigation so but so in 2009 I took on the role the media relations officer and I started speaking on behalf of this investigation Markus and the other investigators prepare news releases and I present them and then be asked questions and I took a vested interest because I had that prior relationship with Lisa my wife and I would often attend the vigils we'd go in the marches we got to know Joanne we got to know Don we stayed in contact with their good friends it was nice to have that community connection also as a police officer and as a human being I'm told that Lisa Marie Young's case holds um what that there are people here who feel like a great attachment to her case and that maybe while they're all important this one holds somewhat of a special place here for the detachment could you uh either one of you or both of you speak to that for me sure I mean I can talk about it as the one that's sort of leading the investigative team I guess um you know it's uh it's the case of this detachment that really um is one that everyone wants to work on wants to try and find closure for um you know Lisa's pictures on the back of my notebook um you know her pictures up in our in our unit there's you know some butterfly wings that her mom gave one of the previous investigators for the file that I think someone made um one of the vigils that they had so um and I know I recall when I joined the serious crime unit two years ago and sort of took over this case um the previous one of the previous investigators that was I think she was leaving on maternity leave but she was very she spent a lot of time talking to me about the case and you could tell she was passionate about it and really wanted to she wanted to make sure when she was passing the torch off off to me to continue with the file that um she wanted to convey her passion for the file and her desire for there to be resolution for it so it was you could tell right from that from that get-go of that transfer of the file sort of to the team that's working on it now that um there was a historic passion to work on this case why do you think that is it's scary we're all the community is impacted by it because we all have children we have daughters we have sons and she went missing and everybody said well if it could happen to her it could happen to somebody else and at that time we didn't have any other situations comparable to it and as time progressed the investigation continued and people were thinking well we'll find out what happened but we never did and that's what's troubling so this is the part of the interview where I'm going to ask you as much as you can to walk me through what you now know about the time leading up to Lisa going missing and that night itself so a lot has been written a lot has been said and uh so as much as possible I think to try and put the facts out there as we know them I think would be helpful all I can really talk about is that there is a lot of information that's out in the public and that um unfortunately I think it's it hurts our investigation to have that much information out it makes it challenging from an investigative point of view when we do get witnesses that come forward with things it's difficult then to be able to vet out whether those witnesses are just regurgitating things that are in the public domain whether it's you know things that they know from personal knowledge and that kind of stuff so it's not something that is normal from my experience for other investigations not just historic ones that there is a lot of information out there so um I think what we can help maybe confirm is that basically there's the police have a lot of information about where Lisa was that night leading up to the point that she is last seen in a car leaving with an individual who we have identified um and it's that period after that that there's very little information um and we believe based on you know our investigation that there are people out there in the community that um know something about that period after um she was last seen and you know the passage of time might work in our favor now you know um people's lives have changed people's circumstances have changed they may have they may have kids of their own they may have been in a lifestyle at the time that you know they didn't have maybe have a good relationship with the police they didn't feel comfortable and maybe that's changed now and they're willing to come forward and mention something to us or provide us with information that they think is relevant so our hope is that people will come forward and tell us what they know and you know the investigative team is is there to follow the evidence we're gonna we're gonna follow down every lead we can and try and see where it takes us you know I get that there's obviously things you can't talk about but can we just to a certain extent talk about the early part of the investigation and then move forward in time to where we're at now when did the RCMP get the first call that she was missing we received a call from the family the very first day that she was last seen so the 30th of June so um I know there previously had been some information out there that that may not have been the case but we did get a call from the family right away um and there was a missing person investigation that was opened later that day and the call uh that she makes to Dallas holly how quickly do the police know about that call in those circumstances it took some time right um you know based on the circumstances that we're aware of um you know she's last seen leaving in a vehicle with a person that she'd never met um the people that she was with that night as far as we're aware weren't necessarily close friends um they were you know people that um wouldn't necessarily have been aware of what other plans she had going on later that day or anything like that so it took us a bit of time to track down um those people and to you know identify that vehicle and you know kudos to the original investigators for being able to do that and being able to track that down the early newspaper reports quote the officers at the time as saying they don't have any reason to suspect foul play do you have any thoughts on why that would be that's a good question I think looking at it in hindsight that that is just a standard line that's kind of said you know the police generally don't like laying our cards on the table when we're investigating something it's important and we don't want to instill fear in the public unnecessarily too in certain cases so you know it took some time for police to really establish that this was um something that was more than just the family having some concerns and some concerning things that were identified early on but still when we're talking about foul plan being concerned about that aspect of it there has to be some more more information that the police would have before they can make that kind of a statement and I think they were just in hindsight I think they were just being cautious so at what point then does that change and why well I think it changes simply because as inves as information comes in on the investigation you know like we've talked about um it becomes clear that this is out of character this is not normal circumstances and in the nature of the way she was last seen right in the company of a person that um she had just met that night and basically was not seen again at that point in time so that obviously significantly changed the direction of the file once there is you know serious concern that she's in danger um how does the scope of the investigation uh take shape at that point what happens well the serious crime team um at the detachment took over custody of that investigation very early on um and that my understanding is the serious crime team then is similar who it is today in the sense that they do they'll deal with all the types of investigations that are um potentially you know could be a homicide or those types of files so their engagement in that file early on to me is an indication of how serious they took it and how concerned they were of where this could go so I did make some pulled some stats about of our about our investigation to give people a sense of how much um how much work's been done on it so you know there's over a thousand tasks that have been worked on and are being worked on the file there's over 15 000 documents there's two filing cabinets full of um of paper documentation which really is is mainly comprised of the original you know paper investigation because obviously now we're mostly electronic you know more than 250 you know witness statements so that's just to provide sort of a snapshot of the amount of work that's gone into the file and is actively ongoing um today so when you say a thousand tasks what does that mean we use a major case management type of organization so it's a way of it's a way for the police to keep a file organized and documented in a way that makes it easy to to review and follow up with certain things and keep track of everything that's going on especially you know investigation that gets larger and more complex and goes on for many years it becomes very difficult to keep track of everything if it's not properly organized so um tasks can comprise you know um you know interview of a witness or you know a review of an address or um you know a tip that would come in or something like that will essentially like it'll get assigned a task and then um you know it might be given a priority it might be given in a an investigator to follow up with and then you know once that sort of task is investigated to its conclusion in a sense it'll get concluded um and then you know as another one comes in it'll just it just keeps building so it's kind of a cumulative thing so obviously there's not a thousand outstanding tasks a lot of those tasks have been followed up with to their end basically but you know as the file continues those tasks will continue to grow um I imagine one of those tasks might have been having to do with Lisa Marie Young's cell phone and uh many of the questions I've got from people since I put the podcast out there in the world is what whatever happened with her cell phone you know we I guess we people watch CSI and think about you know cell phone towers and things pinging and just so can you at all speak to um that the cell phone what what evidence was there was there a trail from a service provider or how does that work well I mean that's an area that we would have that we did look at um I know that cell phones weren't as advanced in 2002 was there now I know we consider a cell phone integral part of our life now and there's certainly way more technology wise I can get done with cell phones currently and really nowadays people use them as for everything whether it's surfing the internet and social media which obviously at that time wasn't in use so um it's something the police have I can't get into details about what we know about it but it's important it's an important part of a file it's valuable in corroborating statements and other things like that but it would be different in today's world in terms of the type of things that we could get from a cell phone nowadays right uh you mentioned as well that obviously the identity of the fellow driving the vehicle that Lisa Marie was last seen in was made at what point did that happen you know I don't have the exact date but it was very early in the investigation so um and like I kind of mentioned at the beginning I think just from a person looking at the investigation now at this time later it was it was a significant advancement in that in that file to be able to do that right um you know the police had to get lucky a little bit and there was some hard work done to try and identify that vehicle in person um you know I think Gary and I were talking before and we discussed that you know if certain things had been different or the vehicle descriptors had been different and other things you know there may have been less of a chance for for us to be able to identify that so that has been a helpful thing and he is at some point uh brought in for questioning is that right the police have talked to them yeah I can't talk about sort of what we learned from that but um you know he's a person of interest in our file and we talked to him but that's I guess all I can disclose from our file yeah okay so there is uh as you know a story out there about Joanne being involved in that interview with him can you confirm that that happened yeah I can confirm that that happened and what is the what is the thinking there I you know I've just I don't I'm not familiar with that happening so I'm just curious what is the thinking in doing that yeah I mean I can't speak to what the investigators are thinking about you know specifically using her and having her attend for the interview but I can just speak in in general terms and I think I think someone else on the podcast that you talked to before I kind of mentioned that as well that you know the police use um statements or audio from family members or witnesses or other people in the course of an investigation to try and assist them in you know in appealing to a person's emotions and feelings to try and have them tell us what you know what they know about something so um I think the investigators at the time were hopeful that Joanne could do that for them uh so the family members I spoke with did identify that driver as Christopher Adair I couldn't find in like going back through any of the stories I read the police actually identifying him publicly has that happened no I don't think it has and so can you confirm he was the driver I can't confirm that I mean no one's been charged with anything so we're not gonna confirm any names except that you know we talked to the driver and that's about it um I don't know how um certain things that are out in the public domain got out in the public domain um and that's like we talked about early on that's you know that's a factor that's it's not a positive thing for our investigation for sure what about the car itself uh I think Don Young told me it was his understanding that the vehicle was brought in and that there was uh a search done can you confirm that aspect yeah I don't want to confirm what kind of searches we did just I think it's important for us to keep that as part of the investigation yeah this this again may be something you folks are not comfortable uh talking about but I will ask uh don uh did say that the family of the driver put pressure his understanding on the police and that directly threatened their family with legal action is that something you're familiar with I'm not aware of any specific pressure being put on anything I know just speaking in general terms from my experience with other investigations you know the police's job is to be neutral and impartial and on and our job is to solve a case and bring justice to the victims um so I can't see how that would impact an investigation you know um sometimes sometimes people say things whether it is family of um people that are being investigated um but it's not gonna in my in my experience it hasn't impacted the investigation I want to ask you about um the searches for Lisa Marie herself can you talk to me you talked about you know what the number of tasks uh at what point do the RCMP do a search for Lisa there's been a lot of searches done and we continue to do them as information and things come in so um you know I can't be specific about places or times and that kind of thing but it is something that we as investigators are continuing to do and will continue to do whether it's through new information that we get or re-examination of you know of old information so there have been there have been more than one search then has there been anything recently um yeah I mean I can say that within since the time I've taken over the file we have done searches and we will continue to do more the psychic I spoke with talked about finding a bag of identification including some female identification and again this is one of those things that I have had questions from listeners just wondering what became of that does that did you guys hear anything about that yeah it was actually interesting when I was listening to one of the episodes yesterday or I heard that on there and I'm not aware of that um at all so um but you know from our perspective from the from the investigative perspective we're open to to explore you know all avenues um you know we haven't there's no we're not tunnel vision on a specific course if there's um we're gonna follow the evidence and if there's other avenues that we need to explore and other alternative things that could have happened where we're going to explore all those and follow where that evidence takes us this is sort of heading into the territory of just seeing if there are things that are out there in terms of rumor that you can confirm or clarify and again if it's evidence that you can't talk about I do appreciate that um Lisa's father Don Young did talk to me about how just days into Lisa being missing he's approached by a gentleman who offers his assistance but don has a feeling that really he's just trying to find out information um this man's name is and I'm wondering if you can talk to me at all about him or any connection he might have with this yeah I mean I can't confirm you know any specific person for our investigative file but I'll just simply just say it goes back to kind of what I said just before that that we're open to all um possibilities for the investigation and we know that there's people have come forward or may have provided information to the police through various means and really I think it's important if people haven't heard back from us or they never you know they weren't sure whether the police received the information that they provided that it's important they come forward now um and come to us directly and provide us that information in in in person and give us the ability to follow up with it and follow that information wherever it takes us the RCMP is just one part of the justice system um there are others and I guess I'm just trying to get a sense of what some of the other parts of the organization might have played was a case ever submitted to the crown prosecutor's office for approval no okay were any warrants ever uh did you ever get any warrants related to this case the police have used many different techniques um throughout the course of the investigation and some of those have included getting warrants and we will continue to use whatever techniques we have at our disposal to try and try and pursue this file there have been um persistent rumors about hell's angels involvement can you speak to that at all I can't I can't confirm that either way yeah and of course a number of people have for some reason a belief that there is a video that was made that night is that something you have any knowledge of the police don't have any kind of video so if there is someone out there that has that video or it has a video um encourage them to give us a call uh there is a call made to the family at some point from a woman claiming that Lisa Marie her body is being moved and that is again one of those um rumors out there in the community that seems to be widely um believed what do you know about that I'm not aware of that specific call taking place um but I know there's a lot of things like that in the community where there's rumors about you know bodies getting moved and people you know her being buried here being buried there and it's I know from talking to the family it's hard for them even now they're they're trying to do their best to funnel witnesses towards our investigative team um especially in the age of social media now they're getting inundated with people saying they have information or their and you know sometimes providing them allegedly grizzly details of things and it's really hard on them so I just go back to encouraging people to come come to us and talk to us and then let us use that information in conjunction with everything else we know and we'll do what we can I had a couple of different people tell me that various police over the years told them you know who is responsible you just haven't been able to prove it is that true I don't know if I mean I don't know if other police officers have been saying that but I guess I can just talk about the investigative team as it stands now and our objectives um we're not laser focused on any specific person or individuals or persons so our job is to follow the evidence and we're going to follow that wherever it takes us even if it's different from the early part of the investigation or not so we're open to open to whatever information people have that we can follow up with and corroborate and and build from there so we're not we're not focused on one specific person or persons do you do you know where Christopher Adair is now I can't comment on that yeah okay um many of the people I spoke with expressed some fear uh about talking about um coming to the police uh why do you think there still is 18 years on that kind of fear in the community that's a good question it's something we have as investigators have talked about as well to try and understand where that fear comes from um you know I'm not here to judge people on what they're fearful of or not fearful of but you know 18 years is a long time to still be fearful about something and I know even from personal experience that fear sometimes is not always based on reality and fact um and sometimes people use fear as a mechanism to stop people from talking and stop people from coming forward so and I would just encourage people to consider that I do feel like you know it's 20 20 we're at where we are now um and I wonder if you can reflect at all on given what we learned from the murdered and missing women's inquiry to what extent do you think unconscious bias systemic racism played a role particularly in the early part of the investigation I don't think it played any role at all based on everything I know about the file and the amount of work that's been done on it um has you know investigative standards changed since that time yes has how the police deal with missing persons files changed significantly for sure um you know I'm the missing person coordinator for the detachment you know and that's something that that's a position that didn't exist in 2002 um there's a significant amount of supervisory oversight for missing persons now um what has changed what are we what are we doing better now than we were 18 years ago right so for missing persons files specifically I mean there's risk assessments that's done on the onset of a missing person file that gets reviewed by a supervisor that dictates sort of how that file is prioritized the file is passed on from watch to watch to watch so if there's 24 7 work being done on that file you know an investigator doesn't go off shift and the file sits for a week or something like that right it's dealt with every shift there's you know the supervisor or the watch commander if it stays with patrol right for instance is monitoring that and it's you know it's mentioned at briefings it goes on um there's a missing persons unit and headquarters at at certain points as the days go on and the missing hasn't been located they go on and review that file they put recommendations on the file there's a missing persons coordinator like myself and I'll go in there and review every single missing person file so it's a way for for there to be a lot of oversight and for files that do appear suspicious or concerning from an early stage they can get um the attention that they need early on and it makes sure that files don't sort of you know fall off the end of a desk you know as a for an analogy sake right um so it's significantly different than it was before as this case and awareness of it as spread outside the community I do see people occasionally commenting online like how do people know for sure that she is not alive um is there any doubt at all in your mind that she is in fact dead based on everything we know of our file my belief is that she's not alive anymore um I'd like to ask you both a question that I've asked um pretty much everyone I've interviewed which is you know there's a possibility people will listen and who knows something uh what do you want them to know what do you want them to hear like speaking directly to somebody who might have information what would you say to them there's no reason to not provide information at this point 18 years have passed some people may have been fearful because of the situation they're in at that point often fear is not based on fear itself is based on something of their own reality we know there are people who have information that can move this investigation forward even after 18 years we need to hear from them they can't wait any longer there's people who have moved from Nanaimo they're elsewhere they have to share this they have to listen to this podcast and do the right thing and talk they don't have to necessarily talk to us contact the local police department whoever it is but make sure that we get that information because we owe it to the family yeah I think it would just say you know exactly what Gary just said but also you know don't assume that the police know that in free piece of information already or that someone else has already told them or um you know I'd rather someone call me with something and for me to be able to say yeah thank you very much you know we do are aware of this or whatever but I'd rather they do that than not call us at all um so especially on a file that's this old and a lot of people believe other people may have said something or you know I've seen it in other investigations where if you have four people that witness something and two witnesses come forward the other two sort of sort of think well the other two already talked so we don't have to worry about it so really for us to make to make this puzzle I'll use that analogy and put all the pieces together we need every single person that has any bit of information to come forward and I'll just add this that people have come forward recently um in our investigation that haven't talked to us before and have provided us with information um that may have been fearful before and aren't to the point now and have come forward so I would just say to anyone that's out there that feels that they would be the only one if they came forward and I that they wouldn't be they would be one among others that have stepped up to the plate and come forward and provided us with information just as I've been listening to you and you talking about not having tunnel vision uh I guess I'm wondering and maybe I'll just be specific and come right out is there anything in the podcast anything that I've put out there or anything that's like out there elsewhere that is wrong that is taking the public uh down a road that you have evidence to believe is just not right I don't think so I mean at this point at this point we need to just explore um all those avenues and you know the challenges when you receive you know second and third-hand information um you know hey it's a lot of work to go and track down the source of that information then you might be another step removing the track down that source of that information and maybe it you know it becomes a dead end right but until you are able to follow those all those um avenues down to the point where you're able to you know comfortably say that you know it's an investigative avenue that is is definitely doesn't go any further than that um we're gonna keep following those leads and at this point we're not close to any possibilities I think that's all the questions I have at this point do you have any questions for me is there anything that I didn't ask or anything unsaid that you want to put out there so if you want to show support there's a vigil this June 28th starts at 11 a.m. at our detachment throughout three parallel street and we'll march down to Maffeo Sutton Park that might just be what you need to see the grief that continues with the family and friends of Lisa Marie um I think I'll just say I'm appreciative of your efforts on doing this podcast and the family's continued efforts and work that they're doing um in trying to keep the public's attention on this file um encouraging people to come forward to talk to us you know we can't do our job if we don't have the public support if we don't have witnesses that want to talk to us and we need we need those people to come forward for us to be able to push this file forward I'm releasing this episode just ahead of the annual march for justice for Lisa on Sunday June 28 2020 if you are in Nanaimo please come out and support Lisa's friends and family and if you aren't in Nanaimo you can still show your support for Lisa on June 30th leave a light on for Lisa sign up for the new Facebook campaign in recognition of that night all those years ago when Lisa's parents sat up waiting for their daughter to return I'm keeping my light on for Lisa and I hope you will too and now a request please take a moment to rate and review this podcast and recommend it to your friends and if you know a case on Vancouver island you think merits a closer look please let me know at Laura Palmer dot ca Island Crime season two will be available in the months ahead I'm Laura Palmer this is Island Crime thank you for listening.

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